tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post6522790161015707213..comments2023-06-08T08:26:07.304-05:00Comments on Advanced Gaming & Theory: Mechanic Series: NecromancerRipperXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-18169625867390158922016-02-16T17:25:59.354-06:002016-02-16T17:25:59.354-06:00Holy crap that is some good stuff! Inspiring as we...Holy crap that is some good stuff! Inspiring as well. When I was first playing with undead I could care less where they came from, they were just zombies or what not, but today I see a more sinister side. The fact that the undead in this story are possessed by their own tired spirits is something new. Typically I had always played out that reanimation was a mockery, that the bodies are mindless. Intelligent Undead are trapped and are always fun to explore, but this story reveals a better undead. NICE! RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-73720809930045661482016-02-16T16:02:40.855-06:002016-02-16T16:02:40.855-06:00http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories...http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/61/the-empire-of-the-necromancersAndy Actionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230751305411973866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-6063586171890831532016-02-16T15:39:13.020-06:002016-02-16T15:39:13.020-06:00Clark Ashton Smith, I think that I read some of hi...Clark Ashton Smith, I think that I read some of his stuff. Like many DMs I read a lot! I must had borrowed a book from the library that was authors writing tributes to H.P. Lovecraft. I don't own it, I wish I did, most of the stories are gone from my memory, but I do remember Robert E. Howard's short story in the collection which was about a man who stumbled across worshipers of some evil religion making human sacrifices to a monolith that was bloody god-awful (in the good sense)! Those images that he invoked will probably never leave my mind.<br /><br />I read a lot of horror in my youth, now I find that it is too much. I get pulled in and depressed all day. Today I read mostly fantasy and science fiction, genres which I had neglected in the past. RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-39435210023757124842016-02-16T15:25:53.310-06:002016-02-16T15:25:53.310-06:00Okay, I suppose that the easiest thing to do is ju...Okay, I suppose that the easiest thing to do is just call evil clerics, necromancers. I have done this in the past, I enjoy Hammer Films, and secret devil worship is one of my favorite tropes. Being caught red-handed with your silly robe on tends to bring out the worst in people.<br /><br />As far as Mages go, perhaps no low level necromancer exists? One is simply corrupted and seduced by the school at high levels? <br /><br />I really like the idea of a Necromancer Avenger, however, a class like that would probably be better served through play.RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-34311070408857222662016-02-16T14:29:52.037-06:002016-02-16T14:29:52.037-06:00@Ripper X:
That's as maybe, but these PCs hav...@Ripper X: <br />That's as maybe, but these PCs have opted to play true death-cultists (Pawns of Nerull & Orcus, respectively). Both campaigns are set in Oerth, World of Greyhawk. We use B/X D&D rules,but I port in some concepts from other systems & editions, including 2nd Ed. AD&D (I think they got the Specialty Priesthoods right!). They use divine magic and granted powers (animate & control undead, for the most part) that are granted directly from their deities. <br /><br />Both PCs are mid levels (6-7th level, respectively) and I plan on having a lot more "divine reciprocity" necessary to gain those higher level spells (some of them are gnarly!). I too used custom spell lists, gathered from myriad sources including the Encyclopedia of Magic, various OSR publications (Dyson Logos' "Magical Theorems & Dark Pacts," Gavin Norman's "Theorems & Thaumaturgy" and Paulo Greco (Lost Pages)'s stellar "Cthonic Codex," "Pergamino Barocco," and "Wonder & Wickedness" and Rafael Chandler's "Obscene Serpent Religion") to flesh them out - there are some pretty unique offerings therein!<br /> <br />I copy/paste the spell descriptions onto a shareable Google Drive document, which I share with the Players, as needed. <br /><br />Also, I have ported in the concept of "Invoke Patron" from Goodman Games' DCC (Dungeon Crawl Classics), which really personalized a PC's interaction with their "higher power" be it a death god (Nerull, from Greyhawk's canon pantheon) or a demon (Orcus). It ramps up the risk factor of working so intimately with such dark powers - as their Oerthly vessels, their choices have begun taking a toll on their persons...<br /><br />Lastly, I'm currently devouring Clark Ashton Smith's short stories (Averoigne, Poseidonis, Hyperborea & Xothique) which I can't recommend highly enough - they heavily feature dark & evil Necromancy of all stripes, with both protagonists and antagonists. I am extremely inspired!Andy Actionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230751305411973866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-27677183764930207322016-02-16T13:29:28.980-06:002016-02-16T13:29:28.980-06:00I think that there is a real difference between th...I think that there is a real difference between the Necromantic Clerics in fantasy and in history. In D&D Necromancers are essentially devil worshippers raising the undead. That's the twisted modern mindset. Historically, the priests of the dead were seen as guides of the loved ones in the afterlife, leading them to a better place. Prime example was the Egyptian Set. He was viewed as evil and alien, but not for the reasons you would think. His cult was brought to Egypt by the Assyrian invaders from the North, who left his temples after they retreated. This cult was a precursor to monotheism. Set did not proclaim himself to be the only God, but his priests SUGGESTED to Egyptian worshippers, that Set is more important than other Egyptian deities, and that the worshippers should go to Set's temple more than to the temples of the others. No other Egyptian cult had that demand, you can go to any and all or not at all, and Set's cult struck Egyptians as Selfish, Alien, and vaguely evil, because it was putting down other deities. Far cry from You shall have no other God before me.<br /><br />Yes, Magic will tend to weaken the wizard's contact with reality. Historic shamans did go psychotic with too manybout of body tips. Not sure how this should play out in D&D. Historically, early doctors and their play with cadavers gave the medical students pretty much the same reputation as Necromancy in D&D.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-42430612566074459132016-02-16T09:57:32.973-06:002016-02-16T09:57:32.973-06:00Anybody who plays AD&D already has a working k...Anybody who plays AD&D already has a working knowledge of Good/Evil, that is a separate topic which would dominate this simple theory of discussion. <br /><br />Perhaps the school of Necromancy is a negative side effect of healing magics, one that devious minds have been able to twist and warp in ways that were never truly intended. Many wizards have used this school to extend their own lives without losing themselves nor becoming evil, however it may be one of those schools that corrupts those who delve to deep. If one studies to hard, one becomes a victim of it in the form of a Lich, one is gaining power but at the expense of their humanity. Is this the only school of magic that does this? I suppose that a Diviner slowly loses their mind, an Illusionist may lose his grasp on reality, should we be enforcing some sort of consequence to those who harness too much power? RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-47997407787285717532016-02-16T09:08:02.726-06:002016-02-16T09:08:02.726-06:00Before we get too deep into archetypes of evil. Le...Before we get too deep into archetypes of evil. Let us define Good and Evil first.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-89982454816330559142016-02-15T14:02:49.832-06:002016-02-15T14:02:49.832-06:00RE: Andy Action
I think that it is very easy to s...RE: Andy Action<br /><br />I think that it is very easy to see the Necromancer as an archetype of evil, but this would imply that the entire school of magic is evil, which isn't possible as schools are all neutral. Any wizard from any school of magic can be evil and harness the same forces as good wizards do. Many of the spells were, no doubt, originally crafted by evil wizards, it is implied in the names themselves. <br /><br />To take this to a realm where we can better understand it, we'll go to Forgotten Realms. Necromancy, like other schools of magic, comes from the Goddess Mystra, who isn't evil. Then, you go to her living champion, Elminster, who is a figure of good. By him not opposing the school of Necromancy, one that brings nothing but sorrow and pain, is he also a sponsor of it? This would be an evil act, if that is indeed what is going on. One must also wonder if it really is Mystra that is supplying this energy, or if this magic comes from someplace else? That would imply that it is not a true school of magic, but a force introduced to the planes by demons, but if this is the case, than general wizards wouldn't be able to access the school at all.RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-24415447547498841652016-02-15T13:46:59.043-06:002016-02-15T13:46:59.043-06:00RE: Broozer
The necromantic cleric isn't just...RE: Broozer<br /><br />The necromantic cleric isn't just a little better than the specialized Necromantic wizard, he is WAY better. That is part of my issue. It disagrees with fiction, yes a cleric of the dead, or even the undead, should be powerful, but when one thinks of the word Necromancer, they see a wizard, not a priest; but in D&D Necromancers are pale shadows compared to them. <br /> <br />By adding a means of summoning a fiend, through sacrifice and favors, one can get it to cast spells for you, until you are able to master the art yourself? I've always wanted to add a sacrificial spell component to the game which allows the wizard to steal the powers of the one he kills and is able to use them to access spells that would be too high for him otherwise. RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-31111757998779074022016-02-15T11:58:02.807-06:002016-02-15T11:58:02.807-06:00Good stuff! I've got a few Necromancer type PC...Good stuff! I've got a few Necromancer type PCs in my games - mostly Clerics of Nerull and Orcus. It's a challenge keeping them fresh (heh) past the Animating Skeltons/Zombies phase. I've introduced opposition Necromancer NPCs to keep them in check and as competition and it has borne fruit in the form of fun! That said, the class tends get a bit nihilistic at time and they aren't "anti-heroes" in the classical sense. They're more sociopathic murder-hobos on crack...Andy Actionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230751305411973866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-88310258764634430952016-02-15T09:08:56.530-06:002016-02-15T09:08:56.530-06:00I think that you are missing a big point about Nec...I think that you are missing a big point about Necromancers. In AD&D, all Clerical healing spells are of the Necromancy school. Necromancers are healers! This brings it to my interpretation of Necromancers.<br /><br />There are three things that are absolute taboos in Midlands: Assassins Guilds, Slave Trade, and Necromancy. These individuals are lynched on sight or taken, tortured, executed on the spot. That is because, Slaves are often sold to alien cults practicing human sacrifice, Assassins learn to impersonate other's core beliefs (i.e. Alignment) and have none of their own. That has major transformative implications in Midlands. At the layman's level, to kill someone for money while having to hatred for the individual, is evil beyond all measure. Necromancers are persecuted because they practice painful vivisection. I.e. human experimentation. Medicine is the side-line of Necromancy. They can help you grow lost limbs, replace missing eyes and other organs, maybe even grow new and wondrous limbs and appendages, and their prices for regular healing is cheaper than a regular wizard charging you to do the research and get you unproven results for the same service. Clerics can do a high level healing much easier, but you need to have the social standing and relevance to the Church community before you can get that high level restorative healing. Why would the deity bother with a non-believer, who is anything less? Healing is a crutch, as far as strengthening your spirit is concerned, anyway. <br /><br />Regarding the weaker specialist schools. This would make sense, once you realize that there are applications of magic outside adventuring. Perhaps specialists earn their living in the non-adventuring world. If you will run them in your campaign, (1) let them make their gold by practicing their spell craft outside adventuring. and (2) let them pick up some fighting or adventuring skills or buy magical items using their spell-gotten gains to make them more effective and survivable while adventuring. Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-69793256839415705452016-02-15T01:31:57.512-06:002016-02-15T01:31:57.512-06:00I think that you've got a good idea going jbel...I think that you've got a good idea going jbelman. I think that we still do this, even today. Christians evoke the spirit of Christ to aid them in a time of need. But it goes back further than that, if you look at the Norse myths, I think that all of these gods, at some point, were living men and women. What makes the Norse Gods rather unique is that even though they are gods, they are not eternal, their deaths are fated and new gods will stand to take their place. <br /><br />Some modern Secret Societies have kept the bones of important members; if one possessed the skull of Merlin, and could consult it in times of need, would this be an evil act? I don't see how. The system could be corrupted, a spirit imitating the great wizard, mixing truth with lies and bad advice. That is the place where our games come from, isn't it.RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7370162161693557709.post-81438274974900531602016-02-14T23:44:24.343-06:002016-02-14T23:44:24.343-06:00Talking about necromancers being good I think the ...Talking about necromancers being good I think the attitude would come from whether the society fears death or not. If you look at it from the point of ancestor worship, where you revere and know them, then a spell like Speak with the Dead would allow you to consult with your great-great grandfather who could give you advice. Raising the dead might would raise an ancestor in time of need who is happy to help you.jbeltmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264520619277158883noreply@blogger.com