1 hour ago
Missile Weapon Ranges and how they have changed
We were playing our Monday game, and the subject of weapon ranges came up, we were outside and range became important. So I got to looking and studying the weapon ranges and I couldn’t figure out what I was looking at. I was studying my old handbook, the 2e manual with the Warrior on the horse, and was just amazed at how crappy and bad the ranges were. First we talked about how this was listed, if its by feet or meters, but we figured that it must be yards. I tried to find the answer but wasn’t able to at the time.
A sample listing was Dagger, 1/2/3 which baffled me. I can throw a knife more accurately then that! And a spear had the same thing. WHAT?!?!
So, we settled on yards, or 3 feet, which was also wrong, but it got me interested in how range works in the different books that I have.
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
Axe, hand: 1/2/3
Bow, composite, long: 6/12/21
Bow, composite, short: 5/10/18
Bow, long: 7/14/21
Club: 1/2/3
Crossbow, heavy: 8/16/24
Crossbow, light: 6/12/18
Dagger: 1/2/3
Dart: 1½ /3/4½
Hammer: 1/2/3
Javelin: 2/4/6
Sling (bullet): 5/10/20
Sling (stone): 4/8/16
Spear: 1/2/3
This is the original 1st edition. These scores are terribly inaccurate.
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2e (1989 print)
Arquebus: 5/15/21
Blowgun: 1/2/3
Comp. Long bow, flight arrow: 6/12/21
Comp. Long bow, sheaf arrow: 4/8/17
Comp. Short bow: 5/10/18
Long bow, flight arrow: 7/14/21
Longbow, sheaf arrow: 5/10/17
Short bow: 5/10/15
Club: 1/2/3
Hand crossbow: 2/4/6
Heavy crossbow: 8/16/24
Light crossbow: 6/12/18
Dagger: 1/2/3
Dart: 1/2/4
Hammer: 1/2/3
Hand axe: 1/2/3
Harpoon: 1/2/3
Javelin: 2/4/6
Knife: 1/2/3
Sling bullet: 5/10/20
Sling stone: 4/8/16
Spear: 1/2/3
Staff sling bullet --/3-6/9
Staff sling stone --/3-6/9
There are more weapons added, and the Dart was streamlined to make it easier to use, but the numbers are all still confusing. There are no hints about what units we are talking about on this page.
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2e (1995 print)
Arquebus: 50/150/210
Blowgun: 10/20/30
Comp. Long bow, flight arrow: 60/120/210
Comp. Long bow, sheaf arrow: 40/80/170
Comp. Short bow: 50/100/180
Longbow, flight arrow: 70/140/210
Longbow, sheaf arrow: 50/100/170
Short bow: 50/100/150
Club: 10/20/30
Hand crossbow: 20/40/60
Heavy crossbow: 80/160/240
Light crossbow: 60/120/180
Dagger: 10/20/30
Dart: 10/20/40
Hammer: 10/20/30
Hand axe: 10/20/30
Harpoon: 10/20/30
Javelin: 20/40/60
Knife: 10/20/30
Sling bullet: 50/100/200
Sling stone: 40/80/160
Spear: 10/20/30
Staff sling bullet: --/30-60/90
Staff sling stone: --/30-60/90
Now, THIS is an improvement. This list even states above it that the stated numbers are in yards. So this would mean that all of the stats listed in the previous editions were listed in tens of yards. Why they couldn’t state this on the charts themselves I honestly have no idea.
PLAYER’S OPTION: Combat & Tactics (also printed in 1995, but complete in 1994)
Arquebus: 10/20/60
Blowgun: 2/4/6
Comp. Long bow, flight arrow: 12/24/42
Comp. Long bow, sheaf arrow: 8/16/34
Comp. Short bow: 10/20/36
Club: 2/4/6
Hand crossbow: 4/8/12
Heavy crossbow: 16/34/48
Light crossbow: 12/24/36
Dagger: 2/4/6
Dart: 2/4/8
Hammer: 2/4/6
Hand axe: 2/4/6
Harpoon: 2/4/6
Javelin: 4/8/12
Knife: 2/4/6
Sling bullet: 10/20/40
Sling stone: 8/16/24
Spear: 2/4/6
Staff sling bullet: -
Staff sling stone: 6/12/18
Out of curiosity, I also included the rarely used and often forgotten handbook of optional rules. This is just a sampling, much more is listed in the book, and is for some odd miniatures rules, and one has to turn to a page prior to find that this is measured in squares, each square equaling 5 feet. Where they got these numbers from I have no idea. Perhaps from the Battle System which came out years and years ago, that I’ve never played neither.
* * *
Looking over the numbers, I see, once again that the reprint which came out in 95 is clearly the better book. The odd thing about it was that I refused to get it, and when I had to buy a Player’s Handbook, I always avoided the reprint. I prefer how the original is laid out, and absolutely LOVE the art inside, but as far as information goes, the winner, at least in this comparison.
I am interested in knowing what 3.0, 3.5, and 4th editions vary from the tables show. Are they the same, or better organized? I just don’t have access to that information.
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- Ripper X
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8 comments:
Yeah, it was a really strange holdover from the old miniatures rules that ranges were listed in inches which you had to convert to tens of feet underground and tens of yards above ground - it about drove me nuts back in the day...
3E used Range Increments. In 2E you had no penalty up to the first Range number, then -2 up to the second, then -5 up to the third.
In 3E they just had one range number. A bow might be 100 feet? I forget exactly. But for every full range increment you suffer -2. So a weapon with range 30 fired at someone 100 feet away would be at -6 to hit. And as I recall the maximum range was x10, though it might have been x5 for thrown weapons (sounds like we houseruled that though).
Problem solved! Thanks Pastor Bill, I find your reply deeply interesting, and it does answer a lot of questions about how they arrived at these strange numbers.
Thanks for commenting Timeshadows, I take it that that is the ranges for the new classic system that you're working on?
Anonymous, I appreciate you adding this data. I don't have access to it, and I was interested on how it varied with the older editions. I'm such an old fart that I find much of 3e to be completely beyond me.
Negative.
I just didn't want to drag the books out.
--Here it goes:
Range Increment-
* Dagger: 10'
* Club: 10'
* Shortspear: 20'
* Spear: 20'
* Crossbow, Heavy: 120'
* Crossbow, Light: 80'
* Dart: 20'
* Javelin: 30'
* Sling bullet: 50'
* Axe, Throwing: 10'
* Hammer, Light: 20'
* Trident: 10'
* Longbow: 100'
* Long-Composite: 110'
* Shortbow: 60'
* Short-Composite: 70'
* Sai: 10'
* Bolas: 10'
* Hand Crossbow: 30'
* Crossbow, Hvy. Repeating: 120'
* Crossbow, Lgt. Repeating: 80'
* Net: 10'
* Shuriken: 10'
^ At or less than the above: No penalty
^ Each Overage iteration: -2
^ Thrown weapons have a 5x max. Increment
^ Projectile (bows, etc.) 10x max. Incr.
That's 3.5's PHB Ranges
Thanks Timeshadows, I'm surprised that nobody else jumped on this, considering how many times I've been told that I should be playing 3.5.
These numbers are even more interesting, I find them harder to understand and it would take longer to calculate for me. Plus, why would the ax be improved, but the dagger didn't?
I just never realized this stuff before. Thanks again:)
You're welcome, Ripper X,
Whatever you're most familiar with... :)
My guess why the axe would be better than the dagger is due to its Heft. A heavier object (but not too heavy) travels further due to Momentum, once its Inertia is overcome. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. :D
I am aware of a single peculear stat from our own mortal mundane world that hasn't changed over time. At times of the war of the roses, a British archer was required to fire 12 arrows in 60 seconds at a target 150 yards away and seven of those had to hit. Modern minimum qualification for an infantry man are approximately the same - fire 12 shots from an assault rifle at a human silhouette target 150 yards away and a minimum of seven shots ahve to hit. Small change for a footsoldier except that it is easier to kill people and to keep them alive thanks to miracles of modern technology. Another fascinating statistic: When Ancient Romans were invading British Isles whenever they were doing it, the casualty ratios of Roman legionnaires to whoever was fighting against them in the British Isles was approximately 1:19. Amazingly, approximately the same ratio was achieved by the US troops in Vietnam in firefights with the VCs and NVAs. This is just from firefights. Other forms of attack (air bombardment, artillery, traps) made casualties higher for both sides.
In so far as it affects my D&D game, I tweaked the range table for the Longbow to have its Long range start at 151 yards. And all the other rangers were tweaked accordingly. I did the same thing for the Crossbow, I don't remember off hand, but it may have dropped for some, definitely dropped for the Chinese Repeating Crossbow down to 45 yards (actual range achieved by the real world Chinese repeating crossbows).
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